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  #31  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:57 AM
stevep stevep is offline
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Default Re: chat and a thank...

umm.

you need to calm down.

with previous comments you've certainly given the impression that you do see something wrong with travel to burma and with those previous comments you've made it fairly clear that we should be shamed for going.
"I am sure some will not sign by fear they will not get a visa to visit beautiful Myanmar. what's trying to help people suffering against great shots of of Bagan at sunset, and "too cute" little kids?"
-are comments like this not charged with innuendo?



"Is that what you do for burmese people, chat and hear them thank you? Well, nice, how about less superficial an action and work in refugee camps or passing thru the jungle to pass on funds to the ones who risked their lives and are now in hiding.
"
you've know idea who i am nor what i've done and or are currently doing for south-east asian people. how can you make such broad generalizations herve? shall we have a contest to see who has given most money or put in the most man-hours in helping people. or should we come up with a grand total of individuals helped through our own charity(monetary or otherwise)? is that what your looking for? though i might as well concede defeat since you've made it abundantly clear that i could not even come close to matching your charitable heart. this is ridiculous. i've travelled and lived over two years in south-east asia yet you assume that the most i've done is chatted with a couple of individuals over a cup of tea.

am i to consult with you everytime i decide to go to vietnam, cambodia or myanmar to find exactly what i should be doing to be a "good traveller"? you seem to have all the answers and we all seem to be so wrong... so please, share your travellers wisdom with me...

forgive my for being dramatic but you've pulled it outta me.
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  #32  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:20 AM
stevep stevep is offline
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Default Re: chat and a thank...

bye the way.

---you could put me in contact with people.....blah..blah

who couldnt herve?

anyone who has travelled extensively through south-east asia could claim the same kind of friends and have done the same kinda things.

i find that arument gratuitous to say the least.

well go ahead, i await your next overly exaggerated tirade with displeasure....
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  #33  
Old 10-18-2007, 11:08 AM
adam_k adam_k is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Well... we have a saying in Poland which derives as far as I remember from communist times: "rzad sie wyzywi" which is supposed to mean something like: the government [-> dictatorship members] will always find ways to feed themselves...

So in this context it applies to the situation in Burma in such a way that even stopping the influx of tourist money into junta's pockets it WILL NOT BRING them to collapse - they will find many different ways to finance themselves...

Of course there is a question whether a single tourist should contribute to supplying them with his/her money - and this is solely his/her personal issue.

Putting these two points on the scales:
1) go to Burma, accept that part of the money finds its destination in the pockets of this military regime but at the same time meet/ talk to people showing them there is also an outside world and maybe by buying some goods/ services from them support them somehow in their difficult existence
2) don't go, don't spend money, keep them in isolation.

in my opinion the point 1 outweighs the second one.

However I wouldn't like too much to compare the situation in Burma to that in Poland/ Eastern Europe behind the iron curtain (but there were also persecutions and riots; some of them bloody ones) I can remember (although the declining times of communist era I remember as a child only) that guests from the 'outside world' were welcome and nobody (??or maybe I'm wrong?) thought of it as supporting the regime with the guests' money...

That's what I can say under this topic - it's a personal decision whether to go there or not, but neither option deserves condemnation.
At least it's good that the discussion goes on... and on...
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  #34  
Old 10-18-2007, 11:45 AM
nicoz nicoz is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Hi Herve,
I see your point and agree with it.
The situation is probably not much worse now than a month ago. Going there would have been a case of conscience a year ago and unfortunately it seems like it will be for some time. As far as I know many people (including you I think) went there after the previous repressions which were even more bloody. So yes, if I had planed my trip before the latest events, I would still go. (The fact is that I personally wouldn't go now and wouldn't have gone there before either...)

Now, I also said something along the lines of "if you go there, you have some duties". If I were to go there, I would certainly not behave in the same way as in Las Vegas. This implies, among other things, being there with the locals. Anyway, my experience of Asia is that you have to mix with the people, because they come towards you, wether you want it or not ;-)

I understand that there is some burmese hype. Tomorrow Tibet will come back in the hype (cf Dalai-Lama vs China) and people will forget about Burma. It's sad but it's the way it is.

In the end, I see little reason why now more than 1 month ago this country should be avoided. But people who made the decision to go there (and they certainly weighted the situation) should behave accordingly to the situation, ie responsibly/decently etc...
Cheers,
Nicolas
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  #35  
Old 10-18-2007, 04:22 PM
kevinos kevinos is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

So the Lady makes you sick, Francis.How sad! In the only free election held in Burma she won 94 percent of the vote. That is her right to speak for the Burmese people. What is yours?
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  #36  
Old 10-18-2007, 04:48 PM
oochappan oochappan is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Aung San Suu Kyi a woman with a Nobel Price, could she be that stupid about tourism ?

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5093832.stm> street photography best done in Burma at the moment</a> as long the camera is not confiscated, out of interest for photos or still maybe people, in that order ?

Small handbook to become famous as photographer, go where no one else go or shoot a star !

Succes !
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  #37  
Old 10-18-2007, 04:49 PM
oochappan oochappan is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Aung San Suu Kyi a woman with a Nobel Price, could she be that stupid about tourism ?

street photography best done in Burma at the moment as long the camera is not confiscated, out of interest for only photos or still maybe people, in that order ?

Small handbook to become famous as photographer, go where no one else go or shoot a star !

Succes !
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  #38  
Old 10-18-2007, 05:42 PM
kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: chat and a thank...

-are comments like this not charged with innuendo?
----------------------------------------------------
no, they are charged with sarcasm. The target is unmissable, not alluded or innunedoed to.



I am not assuming anything, I just commented on what you wrote. I can't make up what you don't say. Funny, this new argument, after you made, a real one this time, an innuendo about "wondering what people Herve met there", like I am clueless, by any chance?

Well, that's it, no need for tirade, good service but I can return well too.
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  #39  
Old 10-18-2007, 06:00 PM
kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Over the years I have witnessed the change of opinion about ASSK, and here I have to give my hats off to the junta, they have succeeded in putting a lot of doubts in people (inside and outside B.) about this woman who has indeed more right to speak for her country than any of us, without being cut down and insulted.

Don't anyone think that the junta is alone. A lot of educated public opinions, from some of our friends too, is that the junta is the best thing to run Burma, and that the possible (1988) democaracy experiment which never happened, would have simply ended in a mess and the junta in power again. This is typical 1st world "Pity and charity yes, but U ain't ripe for democracy, don't even try" attitude.

For all the talk of the generals being idiotic irrational supersititous medieval tyrants, they have won another one, and rather easily, last month. And a lot more cleverly than 20 years ago. They learn, but apparently, we don't. So, Kevin, I guess, It's all the fault of this stupid woman, why can't we see the truth!!!
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  #40  
Old 10-18-2007, 06:26 PM
kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: Visiting Burma: correct image

Cool, Nicolas.

Believe me, I'd love to go, but lest I concretely do something there, not just go, I honestly think that whatever I would be doing, chatting, commiserating, befriending with any burmese I meet there, would simply be self-serving. At this point, since I have been visiting 3 times already, it would be dishonest to say my trips are selfless.

Tourism, like it or not, has been a bonanza for the generals. Money first (unless you stay in really 5 to 10$ cheap hotels, and take non aircon buses), then the great impression the country leaves on us. You really have to pinch yourself and be very politically-minded, to remember or even acknowledge it's a police state.

For undiscerning tourists, and even someone like me, it is easy to fall in some kind of "oh well" comforting feeling it's not all rosy, but not that bad. But we don't see 1/1000 of what there is to see, concerning that police state. The greatest misery is not near tourist places, neither is forced labor taken from large cities. And there is a presence of definite affluence, and business let allow to take place, unhindered by centralized power. Yet, its arbitrariness and iron hand is still a burden that keeps the majority of the population in daily conditions of humiliation and exploitation.
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