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  #41  
Old 09-15-2007, 12:06 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Default Re: Just an observation & PLEASE- NO POINTS...

in answer to your question;
"Have people really become so point driven that they would rather 'sugar-coat' their critiques so people will return the favour with smiles vs. give an honest critique?"

YES.

also, 80% of your fellow TE'ers would love it if you only wrote something brilliant about their photo, no matter how bad it might be. They need to feel that they are complete 'artists' waiting to be discovered, preferring to ignore the amateurish reality they wallow in.

I am always pleasantly surprised when a person thanks me for 0 points and an honest critique!
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  #42  
Old 09-15-2007, 04:24 PM
stego stego is offline
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Default Re: And do you write so many critiques with or w/o points?

Herve,

No need to be sorry. Excessive politeness is only for critiques. :-D

You are right that I am usually excessive in my appreciations. Maybe it's my personality, maybe it is a cultural thing.

However, most of your last critiques is also very positive (I did only a quick look to the last page), so maybe you aren't that different: both of us tend to critique more the posts we like. I would prefer that it was more common that people restrained themselves from attaching 2 points to most of their critiques and I admit that no one obliges me to follow that rule, but as in many other situations that involve social relations, it is more comfortable to go with the flow.

While I assume that sometimes I exaggerate on the adjectives and almost always refer to what is better, I try not to restrain myself in pointing what is less good. I like to think that those who know me better (because I critique their photos more often) know when I am not satisfied with their posts.

I don't pretend that it is wrong that that people don't make so much critiques have not the right to argue against the point system and the use others make of it. I only think that too often they they are in TE with a spirit (not necessarily wrong) that differs from those who generate all those points to less good photos and, voluntarily or not, they end up claiming that "you are all wrong, I am right", which is as senseless as considering that one doesn't like photography if he/her hasn't the latest high-end DSLR with at least 3 different lenses. Why don't they (you?) just see those "points cartels" as something that is related to persons with whom you are not interested in relating and find their own space inside the vast population of TE?

About your last paragraph, I didn't mean that I expect a smiley from people who receive a smiley from me. What I meant is radically different: I expect that they condescend in writing a critique or comment of one of my photos. Believe it or not, I genuinely tend to value higher the less positive critiques.

Not wanting to generalise by saying that everyone who is critic about the point system is like that, too often I find that they don't value that much one of the most interesting things about the critiques: you learn as much, and probably more, by writing critiques than by reading them, because before you write a critique (or just "a note that has something to do with the effect that photo had on you") you have to analyse the photo carefully so you can find what you like and dislike about it, or about what you think that makes it prettier or uglier; and even if you only praise it, you must choose what to praise and what to omit on your writing.

Although not perfect, the fact is that the retribution of critiques is an effective way of getting our photos critiqued and I am far from alone in being more interested in that than in points.

I wonder why those who dislike the point system don't simply turn off them in their profile? Probably because they want their posts to get points, hum? One of the folks that is in my favourites gets plenty of critiques in his posts (and points also!) and he has the points turned off.

More than a "well defined community", I see TE is a place where it is possible to create your own community in a loosely style, much as in real life, where one has several circles of friends or colleagues, each one with their own common interests. Although I admit I can't explain why, I am convinced that one of the things that facilitates the formation of such communities is the point system. Maybe I am completely wrong, but I feel that most of those that are less satisfied with it tend to see TE as a contest, while many of the others simply don't care too much about the points that they receive but at the same time they feel rewarded by receiving them.

Take care, Josť
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  #43  
Old 09-15-2007, 05:09 PM
abanibi abanibi is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 396
Default Re: Just an observation & PLEASE- NO POINTS...

Hi, Dan and everyone.
It seems that whenever we talk about critiques, the discussion focuses on points...
Critiques: that's a good topic. Lots of people ask for honest critiques, and claim to learn from them (me too). And however, of all the critiques I've written which weren't just a praise, very few members have answered (either with a simple thanks, or explaining their shot, or visiting back my gallery). Very few. And despite my little time as a member, I already have anecdotes to tell: the members who repost the photos after my critique (the only critique they had received) but with no answer to me (again no thanks, no "hello", etc.); those who claim they want to learn and allow WS but don't acknowledge the WS they receive, etc etc etc.
I think that in order to write a critique/comment the photo must have some appeal to us; but we shouldn't limit ourselves to the "perfect" shots which need no critique, or omit the improvable aspects of the pictures we critique/comment.
As for the flattery/praising, I can't add anything new to what has been said. But I'll keep trying to write honest critiques (within my limited capabilities).
Cheers
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2007, 06:48 PM
stego stego is offline
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Default Re: Giving critics is an option, not a must

Hi Luc,

Did I say that is wrong to write few critiques?

What I meant was that since points are attached to critiques, people that write less critiques either receive less attention or they can't retribute critiques (note that I don't use the word point) to those who critique their posts. The number of writers being finite, the only way that those who are less active writing may receive more points is that people use critiques mainly as a mean to praise the photos they like better, transforming TE in a contest, letting those of us who need critiques more to improve their photos with less feedback.

It is up to you giving or not giving points to photos you don't like or writing more or less critiques (positive or negative, more or less useful). You have the right to do it, it doesn't bother me a bit and I don't find that you are less worthy as a TE member because of that. As long as we don't start insulting each other, we can all leave peaceful together.
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2007, 06:52 PM
stego stego is offline
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Default Re: they need to feel that they are complete 'artists'...

And so what? I don't mind a bit that my better photo has much less points than that other lousy one that was posted at the same time.
It looks like many (not all, of course!) of those worried about that situation are actually offended because they don't get the amount of points that they think they deserved.
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  #46  
Old 09-16-2007, 04:41 AM
stevep stevep is offline
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Default To stego

"I don't mind a bit that my better photo has much less points than that other lousy one that was posted at the same time"

and neither do I mind Stego. But what i do mind is that these people get offended when I comment negatively to their supposed genius. The main purpose of this site as I see it is for photogs to share ideas and give eachother constructive criticism - not endless accolades for the mundane.
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  #47  
Old 09-16-2007, 04:50 AM
Davids Davids is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 585
Default Re: Just an observation & PLEASE- NO POINTS...

agree with you Luc.
Also, returning a favor once doesn't mean you have to do it again and again and again. That way you're able too reach a lot more people and learn more about the world.
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  #48  
Old 09-16-2007, 02:08 PM
stego stego is offline
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Default To stevep

I couldn't agree more!

Although I am aware that I contribute to that situation, I'd prefer that writing "negative" (but constructive) critiques was a more common thing. But that doesn't happen only because of the "point chasing" attitudes. It looks to me that most of us tend to critique only the photos we like.
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  #49  
Old 09-16-2007, 02:22 PM
kevinos kevinos is offline
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Posts: 692
Default Re: To stevep

"It looks to me that most of us tend to critique only the photos we like."
If that were true ,Jose, it would not be so bad, but the truth is, people critique pictures that they know to be crap because the 'owe' the member two points and they expect to get two in return. Liking or not liking the picture has nothing to do with it.
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  #50  
Old 09-16-2007, 02:51 PM
stego stego is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: To stevep

"... people critique pictures that they know to be crap because the 'owe' the member two points and they expect to get two in return ..."

Yes, I agree that it happens and such is a regrettable thing. But, as in real life, I can leave with it and even if there isn't anything wrong with complaining about it, the best we can do is not giving too much importance to it and just stay away from those people and/or don't align on their game.

My point is that if I don't care about the points I get, why should I worry too much about the points and "good" critiques that some lousy photos and photographers get? In real life (art, technology, etc.) it is also rare that there is a clear correlation between quality and success - not that none of the good things never have success or that every best-selling or popular thing is crap, but too often the "champions" aren't really the best ones, are they?

Like Henk 'oochapan' said, it is much wiser and fruitful to do the right things yourself and don't care much less right conduits of others.

Going a bit off topic, I think that there is a much more worrisome problem with the habits of critiquing, which is the vast amount of posts that don't receive any critique at all.
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