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  #11  
Old 11-13-2004, 06:49 AM
kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Hi, Peter

as you can see, many agree with you and so do I. I put in my 2 cents before, but on the other hand, I do not wish to rock the boat, and this may be the problem, namely that we are starting to form a "silent majority", so to speak, which makes members objectively critiquing, the odd one out, maybe feel like a party pooper, in a series of glowing critiques.

I will admit to often withold posting about or critiquing a well-noted pix, which I may like but find not perfect. I am also self-conscious about maybe hurting someone, when the shot has a great humanity in it, but falls short on the composition, or technical side.

I have talked enough about the point system before, a member friend has evoked the logic in making point-giving anonymous (but still tied to writing a post to a pix). Not sure if that's possible, but i think there's an idea. It may free minds about the tenure of their critiques, and make ping-ponging critiques between members more disinterested. basically separate point-giving from critiquing.

The first week i was on TE, the first critiques i received were like a big Eureka!, i looked at my pix a lot more critically very quickly and gained a lot instantly. I am less sure about this, passed this beginning period. I am just learning more about other members, which is good of course, a real pleasure, and that may reflect on my photography, but the improvement deed seems less powerful (except for wanting to buy a better camera) because i get less critical replies to my shots.

About the constant high # of smyleys some members get for shots someone else would hardly get a few points, it can be demoralizing, as another member told me, but i try to make logging in to our community page a fun experience and not another stressful activity in my life. Fun is the real test!

Cordially, Herve.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2004, 01:35 PM
Tavo Tavo is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Hi Peter,
(instead of photo per day, make it photo every 3 days-geez for me once a week would be more than enough?)
I’ve suggested already exactly the same in late September in the thread "points,critiques,comments", and my sugestion was declined by Adam arguing that one posting a day is a fair number. It is his right and responsibility and I didn’t insist any longer, because I also knew that it would be just a try of a partial solution with not guarranteed result, notably quite unpopular among so called "most active" members.
But I rather wanted to say that I fully share your ideas in general, and maybe even in a stronger (more radical) way. If you have nothing better to do you can also look into the thread "critique quality - for us to think about" and read my (and others’) contributions there.
Later today/tomorrow when I would have more time I would elaborate further on these ideas and maybe contribute with my personal complaints ;-), but I would like not to repeat myself from the previous similar threads.
Thank you for starting this thread, we shouldn’t let sleep such thinking.
PeterB
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2004, 03:21 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

If the critiquer's opinion of an image is entirely positive, and the critique explains exactly what is particularly liked, I don't have any issue with that. On the other hand an entirely negative critique is hardly ever helpful to the picture taker. I would suggest that most images that have the potential for a lot of negative comments would be those submitted by new members. Strong, negative reaction at that stage can very easily scare people off. Critiques should be about learning and I have seen very few images on this site that don't have some positive features. The most valuable critiques are, as suggested by Peter, the constructive criticisms. Nobody would ever learn anything if all they received was unlimited praise.
Have a look at the critique received on this one http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/United_Kingdom/photo103543.htm It's one of mine so I feel on save ground here. Everything that was said was valid and measured. Even when I was posting it I was unconvinced about the image, but I couldn't put my finger on why. The critique expressed in a clear but friendly way what was missing.

Regards

Keith
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Herve wrote:
"I will admit to often withold posting about or critiquing a well-noted pix, which I may like but find not perfect. I am also self-conscious about maybe hurting someone, when the shot has a great humanity in it, but falls short on the composition, or technical side."

Answer.
Herve, in such a case if you write how you appreciate the story of the picture and what it means to you emotionally and then follow it with suggestions on how it could have been done differently, I am pretty sure it would be appreciated, I know I would appreciate that.
Peter
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2004, 04:05 PM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Keith, I agree that for the most part the weaker images will be by new members, most is the key word here. Also, as I explaned before, different standards should be applied to different poeple based on their overall portfolio, the same image taken by somoeone who submitted 5 images, all of them fairly week, should receive encouraging critique pointing out interesting aspects of the image and the once that can be improved, on the other hand had the same image been taken by say few of the names mentioned in this thread before, the critique can ba a whole lot different.

Your example is quite appropriate, most poeple ignored the image because they didn't find it exceptional or way afraid to be honest but one person, had he/she did the same thing you still wouldn't have an idea why you aren't sure about this image. Also I am not sure if there was any dialoque between you and the author of the critique afterwords, but perhaps the the critiquer knows that it was appreciated by you, then he is probably more inclined to do it the same way in the future, with yours and others images.
Maybe changing upload limits would somehow help such situation, but I think that many times honest critiques are witheld because poeple are afraid to hurt the feelings or afraid negative reactions.
I AM TRYING TO SHOW EVERYONE HERE THAT PROPER CRITIQUES ARE MORE APPRECIATED THEN YOU THINK, if the reaction is very defensive and negative, just don't critique the person again. And guess what, you will feel much better when you write something meaningfull pointing out what you like and what can be improved, and receive response than if you just wrote: WOW GREAT IMAGE.
Please keep in mind that I am not talking about the quality of the critique, most of us can't do it, I am talking about honestly expressing our feelings about the image in a proper, polite and constructive way.
Peter
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  #16  
Old 11-13-2004, 08:29 PM
jmignot jmignot is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

I would like to make one obvious comment, which I have not yet read in this thread.
One reason why we see much more WOW comments that hard critics might not be that people refrain from expressing their honest opinion, but simply that they choose to comment primarily on photographs they like, or which somehow caught their eye in the thumbnail format, and don't care much about others. In this sense, the point would not be to be honest but rather to be willing to spend time writing a note about a photograph one considers uninteresting or technically poor. If there is some particular point that can be corrected, then it is ok, let's make some constructive suggestion. But in other cases, it is not obvious to me that writing "I don't like this picture because I find it boring" would be of much help to anybody… In such a case, I tend to skip to something else. Maybe I am too lazy.
Jean-Michel
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2004, 08:21 AM
kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

About the wow comments, let it be, but it seems to be against the rules Adam, the site administrator has taken the pain to write down

Funny thing, a wow comment stays, but when i wrote that i liked a pix and had nothing else to add to the other wow posters, it got deleted as against the rules.... so "wow.." is ok, but "same as wow..." not! :-)))

I basically feel that for most members, the site is basically a photo sharing site, with little thought given to how to participate better or make it a better community.
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  #18  
Old 11-14-2004, 09:19 AM
cgrindahl cgrindahl is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

As is observed earlier in this conversation, this subject appears quite regularly on the forum in different guises. Some folks are unhappy with how critiques are given, points are awarded, or some such thing. I'll say what I've said before. TrekEarth is many things to many people. To assume that everyone here wants the same experience from being here is foolish. Some wish to improve their photographic skills and are pleased to receive thorough critiques of their work. Others enjoy the friendships that develop among members and use critiques to shoot the breeze with each other. Friends applaud each other's work. And folks are more inclined to pay attention to other folk's work when those folks pay attention to their work. That is human nature. I've said often in the past, if you wish to have other people pay attention to your work, start writing critiques. If you take great pleasure in showing how much smarter you are than everyone else about things photographic, you will quickly discover that your presence is an annoyance, and not likely welcomed. Far better to be gentle with advice, ever mindful that in the world of art, virtually every opinion is just that, one person's opinion. If you know the "rules" and feel that justifies your opinion, you are playing a fool's game. Far better to simply share your personal response to a photo, expressed completely as an opinion, offered tentatively as a suggestion to be considered.

If you want serious commentary, spend time with those folks on the board who will give it to you. Cultivate relationships with those folks. Comment on their contributions. Solicit their opinions and advice. Check out their workshops to learn how they view composition, how they prepare images for presentation. There are many talented and generous folks at TE who freely offer support and guidance. I've learned a great deal during my months as a member. So have fun, stop worrying about who does what, and make TE the kind of place you want it to be by behaving the way you want others to behave. If you want good critiques, write thoughtful critiques. That seems pretty simple to me... ;-)
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  #19  
Old 11-14-2004, 01:14 PM
Riz Riz is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

your hit it right on the button Curtis!
=dave=
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  #20  
Old 11-14-2004, 07:18 PM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

I thought I had suggested many times in this thread that that something like "I don't like the picture because is boring" wouldn't make any sense.
Agree with nuber of other points you brought up.
Peter
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