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  #31  
Old 01-02-2011, 01:50 PM
Juzo Juzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyV View Post
I fully agree with this.

Yes, sometimes the heart has to win. Laws are not made to be broken, but a good judge interprets. That is called wisdom. The removal of Jan's picture was a bad mistake.

Benny
I think Benny sums this up. Wisdom is the key.
I respect the rules, but please, this is not just about rules, this is real life we are talking about, some sensitivity is required here.

Regards
Justin
  #32  
Old 01-02-2011, 01:54 PM
Juzo Juzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannes68 View Post
Dear All,

I have not seen this photo, so I canīt say whether it did or did not violate the TOS. The problem is that in a case like that this shouldnīt matter. It was thought as a moment of silence and memory for the dead TE-member. TOS or not TOS, a photo like this must not be deleted. Deleting it reveals a lack of respect, and for me a lack of education and culture. Deleting it leaves the ugly taste that the TOS are more important than the memories of a dead. Itīs as simple - and as sad - as that.

Johannes
Also, I agree with Johannes' sentiments here. This is very very sad I am afraid, to be honest, I am amazed that this has to be debated, and with all due respect to the moderators, I am amazed that Jan's image was deleted.

Regards
Justin
  #33  
Old 01-02-2011, 03:32 PM
mkamionka's Avatar
mkamionka mkamionka is offline
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Location: Middlesbrough, UK
Posts: 1,325
Cool example

Because the discussion is so intense let me give you an interesting example from Polish politics.

You have heard that on April 2010 there was a plane crash with Polish president and 96 other important people from my country on board.
Although the late president was not popular (25% popularity) and has no meaningful achievements many people were moved by this sudden death. Scouts spontaneously installed a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace in Warsaw. There were thousands of candles and flowers brought daily. People were visiting and praying. Yet after weeks the new president was elected. Most of people believed that somebody should clean the candles and flowers and the wooden cross which did not really fit the surrounding. Yet the opposition party with its leader being the twin brother of the deceased president (I am serious) said the cross is an important symbol and should stay there forever or alternatively be replaced with a monument erected in this very place. This has caused a lot of discussion because 1. the late president was below average and was already literally buried among Polish kings in Krakow, 2. this place in the middle of Warsaw old town did not seem appropriate to erect additional monument, as the cross was actually standing already in front of another monument.
Obviously it was a very sensitive issue.
A real war started. This place became a place of numerous happenings. Older people gathered there day and night to protect the cross. They were called in media "cross defenders". When a priest with police tried to move the cross, the crowd started to offend the priest and the officers calling them names. The cross stayed there for few more months. Finally without a warning the president's security managed to transfer the cross to the chapel which they say is a more appropriate place for it.
This secret transfer caused a wave of protests and accusations in particular by the twin brother of the late president. The opposition party focuses since exclusively on getting to the power as they say to well memorize the late president...

The story seems ridiculous yet it is very real.

For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.

In the case of the late Polish president there will be several monuments but in more appropriate places. In the very square where the cross was set at the moment there is an elegant inscription on the palace wall memorizing the sad events. Surprisingly one of the cross defenders thrown a bottle with his excrement, to demonstrate that the marble inscription is not enough to memorize the president (!).

Do you see a similarity? I do.
  #34  
Old 01-02-2011, 06:30 PM
npecanhuk npecanhuk is offline
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Default In the name of...

So, stop in the name of love... or go on in the name of war!
  #35  
Old 01-02-2011, 08:50 PM
siamesa siamesa is offline
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Posts: 2,718
Smile stop

Hi friends

I make mine the words of our friend Neyvan. The year is just beginning. Please let's stop to hurt each other.
Pax et Bonum
  #36  
Old 01-03-2011, 10:03 AM
BennyV BennyV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
Because the discussion is so intense let me give you an interesting example from Polish politics.
(...)
Do you see a similarity? I do.
So do I, but I also see the differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
Although the late president was not popular (25% popularity) and has no meaningful achievements many people were moved by this sudden death.
I don't really follow Polish politics, but in this discussion were not talking about some of the very best on this site. For me - and I don't think I'm alone - it is the presence of those few really good photographers that make the site worthwhile. And I'm not just talking about their presence, but more importantly: they were active members with lots of USEFUL critiques and WS's to prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
Scouts spontaneously installed a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace in Warsaw.
We are not scouts and Jan's commemorative picture is not a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace. We are only talking about one simple picture among the many being uploaded daily. In no way was this "standing in front of another monument". Let's keep a sense of proportion here, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
Most of people believed that somebody should clean the candles and flowers and the wooden cross which did not really fit the surrounding.
Again, I don't know about Polish politics, but I tend to get very suspicious if someone claims to be speaking on behalf of "most people".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
The story seems ridiculous yet it is very real.
Reality often is quite ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkamionka View Post
For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.
That is not a conclusion, my friend, that is precisely what disagree about! Jan posted a commemorative picture. Some people think this was inappropriate (and they have the ToS and the moderators on their side), some people think that in this particular case the mods should have been a bit more lenient, a bit more humane and let it pass. That's all.

My conclusion?

This unfortunate affair has lead to again two of our very best photographers leaving the site (Jasmis and NinaL). This is particularly painful since many of the best photographers have left already.

If someone doesn't agree with a decision of the mods, he/she has every right to let them know. This is not "a war", there are no "names called", no "bottles with excrement" being thrown (oh, come on, please...), but this kind of feedback is very important for the ones who run this site. The site thrives on its members being happy. Simple as that.

And then for me personally it's either get back to the pictures or join Jasmis and Nina. I guess I'll stick around, but even though I supported the mods in most earlier cases, I really believe this particular decision was a mistake.

My suggestion?

It would have been wiser to have allowed this picture to stand, maybe for a limited time, e.g. with a personal message like one: "Dear Jan, you probably know your latest picture is not allowed within the ToS, but given the delicate subject matter and because it is such a nice gesture to one of our departed members, we will not remove it. On the other hand you know we have to stay true to our original aims of 'learning about the world through photography', so we would appreciate it if you would remove the picture after a suitable time. If you want, we can automatically remove the picture after a one month period. We thank you for your contribution and hope you understand our position. Kind regards. the mods"

Not that difficult, is it?

Or shall we agree to disagree?

I wish the mods and everyone involved in the site lots of courage and wisdom for 2011.

Benny

Last edited by BennyV; 01-03-2011 at 10:05 AM.
  #37  
Old 01-03-2011, 11:52 AM
emka emka is offline
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Posts: 4,536
Default

"For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.

In the case of the late Polish president there will be several monuments but in more appropriate places. In the very square where the cross was set at the moment there is an elegant inscription on the palace wall memorizing the sad events. Surprisingly one of the cross defenders thrown a bottle with his excrement, to demonstrate that the marble inscription is not enough to memorize the president (!).

Do you see a similarity? I do."

As a TE member and friend of Jan for many years, also old Polish woman and inhabitant of Warsaw where the Presidential Palast stands, I can say that I know both situations very well from my own experience. And the comparison of them is totally inappropriate.





I see often fun in serious situations. So , let's see how this comparison works. I can't help, I will write it.

There is one dead person in both cases so Marek is in the role of late president (haha)
Jan is in the role of his twin brother Jaroslaw (hahaha)
mods and Mariusz in the role of authority it means our present President Mr. Komorowski
and me - the cross defender (it is the best !)
Emka

Last edited by emka; 01-03-2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Corrections.
  #38  
Old 01-03-2011, 03:34 PM
Buin Buin is offline
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Posts: 3,057
Default A candle and a remembrance ...

This occurrence, the "capitulation" of Jan, is another proof for the arrogant, merciless, insensitive and small-minded absolutistic ruling of the moderators here on TE. The downfall of this site in this way is inevitable and it nearly seems to be intended. I have no other explanation for this behaviour. One clearly can see that the forum "Clearing the air ..." was nothing else than a smoke grenade in order to lull the TE members.

What else must happen in order to make the moderators reflecting on their incredible behaviour. It isn't watching the compliance with the TE rules, it is pure absolutism - with blinders. It's a real shame that Jan who really rendered outstaning services to TE is treated in such a way.

It's the time for an apology instead of entranching behind "rules" ...
  #39  
Old 01-04-2011, 12:24 AM
kajenn's Avatar
kajenn kajenn is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lund, Sweden
Posts: 699
Post I beg to differ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buin View Post
[...] another proof for the arrogant, merciless, insensitive and small-minded absolutistic ruling of the moderators here on TE [...]
Ah, come on guys, keep it within reasonable limits...
  #40  
Old 01-04-2011, 05:15 AM
Docarmo's Avatar
Docarmo Docarmo is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Canada (Acton Vale - QC)
Posts: 2,130
Lightbulb Brazilian way

Here is a link to see the image that was deactivated - not deleted. I caught the number provided by Jan (Jasmis) and reconstructed the link.
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/photo1265643.htm

I am not a moderator, nor administrator. I am a simple member.
I don’t know Jasmis, nor Marek.
So, what I write here is not out of friendship to anyone, not for anyone who I miss. Not to please "Greeks and Trojans", neither.

Jan, everything is a matter of presentation.

I saw the picture and read the note. The way it was done, in my opinion, is really out of the principles of the TOS... Please, Jan, continue to read, do not stop here.

I don’t know if it's due to some participations here in the forum, I started receiving emails asking my opinion about the case. Therefore, I'm intruding here.

What I think? In Brazil, we say this: Para tudo, dá-se um jeito (For everything, there is a way).
Let us, then, try the Brazilian “way" (jeitinho brasileiro).
According to TOS, if we write an appropriate note, an image can become acceptable.
According to what moderators have said repeatedly, an image can be reactivated if the member concerned sends an appeal and an explanation.

Well, here's my suggestion...

I assume that TE has become a kind of "country", a "nation" - has become an entity from which we have a "nationality", an "ethnic".
TE membership comprises having duties and rights - properly set in the TOS.
Losing a member of TE, due to migration, abandonment, death... generates consequences. In the case of Marek, his death generated much pain, as I see the reactions.
Then, a picture on genre PEOPLE, showing a silhouette of someone who looks sad, deep in a room, with a candle in a kind of ritual... This photo shows the behaviour of a people - the people of TE. Which category? Daily life?

Once, I sent a response to one of my removed photos, asking to return it, with necessary modifications. And I got permission.

Jan, I'll write a note for your photo, I hope you do not mind.
Who knows, with what I will write, you may request a reassessment of the case?

Suggestion of a NOTE:
"TE has some people and these people have a history that has already been built over some years. Like every people, we have our traditions and our memories.
Some are gone. Like every people, we have our rituals, our celebrations.
Today, I let my note of sadness – not only mine but of many TE’s people – because of the death of Marek, two years ago.
Contritely, reduced to a shadow, a silhouette in the background of a picture, I bring my humble, earnest tribute. With the hope that life does not end with death in the Earth. Let this candle symbolizes that hope."


Du

Last edited by Docarmo; 01-04-2011 at 02:25 PM. Reason: text improvement
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