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  joseelias 2007-04-17 7:57

Well, I don’t want to enter into an ideological/religious debate but you’re mixing several concepts, and misinterpreting others, being the most notorious one the concept of democracy.

Yes, in fact the Portuguese Communist Party has been elected by the population for the governance of the municipality since the democratic revolution, BUT, that does no mean that Seixal is a communist state.

So, when in a democracy a party is elected it must follow its own principles and electoral program, but also govern for ALL people. It is in this sense that the so called “contradiction” may occur. The communist movements don’t have an easy relationship with the Catholic church and religious movement in general, but when someone is democratic he respects others beliefs and convictions. Besides the values of Christianity are not far from many values of communism, and many communists are also devoted Catholics, so I don’t see much of a contradiction or a non-sense in this decision.

I agree that the church and state are separated in the constitution, but it is also said that people beliefs must be respected, and as the vast majority of the population is catholic, even if not practicing I don’t see it as completely wrong for the state to support these works as they function as service to the population. I would see it wrong if support for other religions would be denied, though.

Regarding, the architecture of the church I think you should know that the original project was probably the most beautiful modern church I’ve seen (I know it closely), but it seems that due to financial problems, the church could not build it, and came up with this one. In fact, this church was to be built in another space and already several years ago. I know there is a lack of leisure places, but a building cannot be built in the air… So it must be put somewhere, near the population preferably…

  #1  
Old 04-17-2007, 04:23 PM
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Default To joseelias: Olá !

Olá José Elias,
Obrigado pelo comentário e pela franqueza em expores a tua opinião.
Eu já imaginava que a minha nota/foto fosse polémica, mas como estamos num ambiente de liberdade de expressão, "arrisquei".
Eu sou extremamente crítico da religião em geral e da católica em particular, e sou por isso um adepto radical da separação entre religião e estado (ou outros poderes públicos como as câmaras; claro que a CMS não é um estado). Acho que o estado (câmara, etc) não deve favorecer nenhuma religião, por muito maioritária que seja (no caso da Católica em Portugal eu duvido dos números, mas isso é outro assunto).
Claro que a igreja não podia ser feita no ar, mas se quisessem um terreno, que o pagassem. Por exemplo, a IURD também compra cinemas (por muito que sejam criticáveis os seus métodos e fins); a Crystal Cathedral (fotos anteriores) também foi paga pelos seus fiéis. Porque é que a Católica há-de receber terrenos públicos e ter tempos de antena na rádio e televisão públicas?
Não ligues, isto sou eu a desabafar, como "bom" crítico da igreja (e dos nossos políticos ;-)
Um abraço,
Francisco
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:49 PM
joseelias joseelias is offline
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Default Re: Para joseelias: Olá !

Eu entendo o que queres dizer perfeitamente, e concordo em grande medida com o que disseste tanto na nota como na resposta. O meu comentário foi feito numa perspectiva de “quem governa” em democracia e das suas responsabilidades e desafios, e da ilusória contradição entre comunismo e valores cristãos (acentuo a palavra valores e não instituições).

No entanto, vejo com mais gravidade os actos de descriminação, que os de apoio como neste caso. Embora não apoie e me alegre com estes tipos de acções já que falta dinheiro para tanto compreendo-os, mas o que não suporto é a descriminação para com todos os outros, as chamadas minorias. Isso é que é um verdadeiro atentado à constituição.

E não me refiro apenas a questões religiosas, mas a muitas outras coisas. Como exemplo, no desporto onde tudo vai para o futebol e todas as outras modalidades são esquecidas. Mesmo sendo mais saudáveis em termos físicos, mentais e “morais”. Por exemplo, no clube em que era treinador de canoagem, o ordenado de UM MÊS do João Pinto quando estava no Benfica era o equivalente a 15 ANOS de orçamento para o meu clube!!!!!!!! E tínhamos mais de 100 miúdos a praticar e uma lista de espera de outros 100 que não conseguíamos integrar por falta de dinheiro. E o estava enterrou milhões em estádios que estão agora vazios…

Quanto á religião não interpretes que os meus comentários vão em sua defesa. De facto, abomino completamente aquela “Máfia” aberrante de interesses obscuros e individualistas, e de tráfico de influências que as instituições religiosas representam em grande medida. Na minha perspectiva, estas instituições têm-se revelado como as maiores inimigas de tudo o que apregoam. O respeito que possa ter por pessoas ligadas á Igreja baseia-se única e exclusivamente por questões individuais e não de instituição.

Já agora, o projecto original era muito maior que esta, em forma octogonal, com contrafortes em estilo gótico a toda a volta. Tinha várias estruturas de apoio à volta como creche, centro de dia, etc., e havia um ajardinamento a toda a volta. Foi pena não a construírem assim…
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Para joseelias: Olá !

Basicamente estamos de acordo (nem me fales em futebol!)

Polémicas à parte, acho muito interessante o teu último parágrafo. Sei que antes havia uma placa do terreno numa zona na Cruz de Pau, perto dos correios das Paivas. Será que o projecto original era para lá?
Estética/artisticamente não tenho nada contra as igrejas (desde que sejam eles a pagá-las). Por isso tenho curiosidade em ver esse projecto original. Será que me podes arranjar uma imagem ou indicar algum site onde esteja?
Obrigado.
Francisco
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Old 04-17-2007, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Para joseelias: Olá !

Sim, era para ser num espaço livre que tem nesse lado e que está(va) ocupado por umas barracas de ciganos.

Mas parece-me que houve uma série de atrasos por parte da igreja em termos de financiamento e com este periodo de espera e incertezas o terreno deixou de estar disponivel. Não sei o que é que a CMS está a pensar fazer lá. Penso que foi isto que aconteceu.

Já agora, igreja original era para ser branca com os pilares e outros detalhes da arquitectura em cinzento. Com os telhados em laranja ficava com o ar muito interessante. Era uma espéciae de gótico moderno. Isto é, olhava e vias logo que era uma igreja mas actualizada.

Quanto a imagens eu tenho uma série de fotografias da maquete de arquitectura que fiz, em estilo realista, mas não as tenho comigo neste momento. E não sei se seria possivel divulgar-las publicamente devido a direitos de autor e por o projecto não ter sido executado.

Mas se queres ter uma noção próxima do projecto procura imagens da Igreja da Nsa. Senhora da Pedra no Porto (foz do Douro), multiplica várias vezes o tamanho e tens uma ideia aproximada. Penso que é assim que se chama. É uma igreja pequena muito fotografada construida em cima de um ilha rochosa à beira bar.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:04 AM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: To joseelias: Olá !

To Jose...
Those communist guys in that region...
Why do they even call themselves 'The communists'?
Seems to me like they're a menace to the good, old traditions, the real traditions of real communists: Josef Vissarionovitch, Ilyich, Mao, Kim Il Jing, Fidel, Leonid and endless scores of others...
So, you said that they not only didn't arrest the priests and their families, but actually let them to have yet another church ????
Horrible, horrible times are coming to the world...
We, the people who want united happiness to all of the united people of the world, we should do something about it...
We can't allow the people who don't want the other people to be happy people to decide about other people...We must act quickly !
The time has come to rise...!!!!
------------------------------------
Pity, you guys switched to Spanish...There could be more deeply political opinions available to the post.
------------------
In the meantime...
Long live love, money and 'guilt free' sex..

george
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: To joseelias: Olá !

Hi GG,
I'm not sure whether you understood what’s going on with this post and discussion, especially the non-English part. In short:
1. No one is a supporter of the communists here.
2. Some see contradictory that the ideologically anti-religion communists support the Catholic Church.
3. Some don’t see contradiction, as the city government, even ruled by communists, must support all public activities, including religion.
4. Others defend that the city government (communist or otherwise) must respect the constitutional rule that separates church and state.
5. Everybody here agrees that the architectural design of this church in the photo is ugly.

And now I add:
I guess the Portuguese communists are not real communists anymore. Or I don’t know what a real communist is (or was).

----------
You wrote:
"Pity, you guys switched to Spanish…"

Well, my friend, either you made an involuntary mistake or you are teasing us ;-)
I really don’t care and I understand that foreigners may be mistaken, but most Portuguese get angry if you say they speak Spanish.
Indeed, Spanish and Portuguese languages have many similarities. But it’s like Czech (or Slovak) and Polish. Or Lithuanian and Latvian. Or is like Spanish and Italian — and nobody says the Italians speak Spanish...

Have a nice day.
By the way, today the labor union controlled by the Portuguese “communists” decreed a general strike. Actually, I guess there are a lot of good reasons for a general strike against the “socialist” government, but it seems most people went to work. This sad people are thinking more immediately on the money they earn today.

Regards,
F
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:47 PM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: To joseelias: Olá !

1. My comment was intended to be highly sarcastic and extremely anti-communist.
Quite possibly, my far from being useful English, didn't express this idea properly.
2. Consider yourself Franciszek, to be very lucky to live and interact within the Portuguese people.
3.It's funny to read : They must obey,...They must respect...
My comment to that...Read above (no.2).
4. The church is ugly.
5. Real communist...?
It's rather difficult to be be a real communist among westerners...In many cases - it's just simply impossible.
Few thousand kilometers to the east and there we are...The breeding ground for real ones...The true colors ones...
6. Spanish...?
You started the thread in English...I was hoping to continue in English...
Oh, well...I promissed myself million times...Jorge, go and learn Spanish... Lazy baastard me...
--------------------------
Love brother Franciszek, love & peace...
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: To joseelias: Olá !

Olá Jorge!

"My comment was intended to be highly sarcastic and extremely anti-communist"

I understood you that way. My reply was just to make clear to you some points that you maybe missed when we wrote in Portuguese.

"Jorge, go and learn Spanish"

If you didn't for Spanish, try Portuguese. It's even more difficult! :-)

Now, seriously. Portuguese and Spanish may be seem similar in written form, but spoken it's quite different. I guess Spanish phonetics is easier to foreign people.
Often travelling abroad, people listining to me with other Portuguese they wonder which language do we speak; some try to guess and in the end they get surprised because it is not a Slavic language. Often people ask if we are speaking Russian. I guess that, despite the different vocabulary, the phonetics of Portuguese (European Portuguese, not so the Brazilian accent) is rather similar with the phonetics of some Slavic languages.

If you have time to continue reading, I tell you other funny story. I went once to Gdynia in a ship. I and some mates decided to take a train to visit Gdańsk. We didn't know a word of polski (not even piwo yet!). We went to the ticket office of the train station and my mates, in our broken English, asked for tickets to Gdańsk. The clerk woman was even dumber than us at English and we couldn't get understood. Then, out of despair, I said to my mates: let me try in Portuguese. So I did and asked the woman: "Queria um bilhete para Gdańsk" (don't ask me now for phonetics). Magically she gave me a tiket (bilhete) and I gave her the biggest złoty banknote I had, because I didn't understood what she said (maybe the amount), hoping that she would give me back the correct change.
Then in Gdańsk we had to presume which was the central train station, among Gdańsk-Wrzeszcz, Gdańsk-Główny and such weird-looking displays of letters, but that is another story.
F
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:34 PM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: To joseelias: Olá !

Oooops...I meant Portuguese !!!
Why the heck I spelled Spanish...??

Where is my morning coffee ??????
-----------------------
My next house neigbors are Portuguese...
Isabela & Antonio Borba...
The nicest people in the world.
Kinda workaholics, true...Still...The great neighbors.
They take care of my house when I leave... I feel realy lucky to have such people around.
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:50 PM
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Default new view

See in the new workshop a view of the <a href="http://www.trekearth.com/workshops/627157/photo151997.htm" target=_blank>concluded</a> church (photo Dec.30, 2008).
F.
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