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  #21  
Old 11-14-2004, 08:23 PM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

kinginexile wrote:
"I basically feel that for most members, the site is basically a photo sharing site, with little thought given to how to participate better or make it a better community."

There are much better sites out there for photo sharing without upload and site limits, I was also under impression that a sensible feedback is one of the things that brings people here.
Shoule we perhaps suggest an option in the profile that would say something like: "I want te became better photographer-please critique" and "I don't want critique just nice comments".
Peter
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  #22  
Old 11-14-2004, 08:39 PM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

cdgrindahl wrote:
"TrekEarth is many things to many people. To assume that everyone here wants the same experience from being here is foolish. Some wish to improve their photographic skills and are pleased to receive thorough critiques of their work. Others enjoy the friendships that develop among members and use critiques to shoot the breeze with each other. Friends applaud each other's work. And folks are more inclined to pay attention to other folk's work when those folks pay attention to their work. That is human nature. I've said often in the past, if you wish to have other people pay attention to your work, start writing critiques."

Indeed foolish of me, I thought that members here since they all like taking photograph (are there any members who don't like taking photos?) would like to take them better and better. Wrong assumption I guess. I have also incorectly assumed that this, at least in large part is a photography forum.

cdringhal wrote:
"If you take great pleasure in showing how much smarter you are than everyone else about things photographic, you will quickly discover that your presence is an annoyance, and not likely welcomed. Far better to be gentle with advice, ever mindful that in the world of art, virtually every opinion is just that, one person's opinion. If you know the "rules" and feel that justifies your opinion, you are playing a fool's game."

Don't exactly know what was the point of writing that.

cgrindhal wrote:
"If you want serious commentary, spend time with those folks on the board who will give it to you. Cultivate relationships with those folks. Comment on their contributions. Solicit their opinions and advice."

Perhaps a good sugestion, however subgroups and cliques are probably not what this community is suppose to be about.

cdgrindhal wrote:
"If you want good critiques, write thoughtful critiques. That seems pretty simple to me... ;-)"

I have a feeling that you wrote your comments without reading anything I said in this thread (or at least any effort to understand it), I have written many times that the point I am raising is not about quality but about saying what we thing about the photo good or bad (expressing own opinion not opininions that others have already expressed or something else).
Peter
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  #23  
Old 11-15-2004, 12:27 AM
Galeota Galeota is offline
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Default Yeah, yeah...

Had you ever tried to take a look at his critiques, and you would have noticed that he is one of the TE members who writes the most thoughtful and interesting critiques on other’s photographs. Had you ever taken a look at his critiques and you would have also noticed how much he is one of those persons always ready to give a sensitive and pertinent feedback to help other members improve their work. Had you EVER used the “search” function in this forum, and perhaps you would not have started this thread without measuring it properly to what has been discussed over here in the last months.

If you’re completely incapable of understanding the fact that different people may have different opinions, different views, therefore expressing them differently in whichever connections they may have with others in a specific community, I’m afraid you’ve not understood yet the basic principles of relations and social links between human beings.

You have a point in expressing what you need from this community. Take it as your own need and learn to understand other’s points of views which are no worse and no better than yours.

Although you state that ”the majority of comments on the images are simply glowing reviews”, and that “There are much better sites out there for photo sharing without upload and site limits” you still have the feeling that “a sensible feedback is one of the things that brings people here”. I’m not sure if that’s a paradox or not, but you’re definitely going through an existentialist crisis and I guess you haven’t found yet an answer to the question “should I stay or should I go?...”

Tell me Peter, why are you posting your photographs in TE? Have you ever tried to post them somewhere else, in one of those “better sites of photo sharing”? Did you happen to have there thoughtful critiques on your work? Was your work improved by the comments you were receiving? If that was the case, how did you end in TE, sharing your purity of opinion with so many “dishonest” people, totally incapable of providing a sincere and honest opinion on what they see? You would have told that there is a lot of praising critiques, I would have agreed with you. But between praising and dishonesty there is a certain gap…

In your “Intro” page, you write that you are A MEMBER of a community, and that you hope to EXCHANGE opinions, suggestions and observations.

Please realize that being A MEMBER doesn’t mean being representative of a whole community. And EXCHANGING opinions doesn’t mean converting those who surround us to our own opinions.

Actually, I do find that you brought us a rather interesting subject, although there’s already an extensive literature on it in this forum. It’s just the way you bring it to light that disturbs me. In another words, some humbleness wouldn’t do you any harm.


Cheers
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  #24  
Old 11-15-2004, 12:31 AM
Galeota Galeota is offline
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Default Re: Yeah, yeah...

In case it isn't clear, my answer above is destined to Peter and the arrogance with which he stated that Curtis didn’t read a single word he had written or tried to understand it.
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  #25  
Old 11-15-2004, 01:28 AM
Ebbe Ebbe is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Just putting in my two cents of poor knowledge about most things. I just want to make one thing clear Peter. In all the discussions on critiques, points and social internet behaviour I have seen here there is just one guy that has proved to understand how the system works on a human to human level. And that guys name is Curtis. Also please note that he has made a long and hopefully good living on that knowledge.

Ebbe
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2004, 02:02 AM
Rinie_Hoff Rinie_Hoff is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

I'm not often here in the fora, simply because I lack time, and I have seen these kind of threads before. But Like Ebbe and Gal, I think Curtis is the one who takes the greatest care about what he writes, and especially HOW he writes the critiques to pictures, and to the photographers behind these pictures. If you take the time to check this out, you can see how he guides new people around, how he helps them to find their way, and how he carefully follows their uploads afterwards. And I couldn't agree more with what he writes in this thread. If you stay around long enough, you'll notice that that's exactly the way things work among human beings. I too have more fun when I'm with people with whom I can share things. And yes, I think TE is basically a friendly community, and personally I will try everything to keep it that way.
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2004, 04:20 AM
Tavo Tavo is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Self-quotation:
"Hi Peter,
(instead of photo per day, make it photo every 3 days-geez for me once a week would be more than enough?)
I’ve suggested already exactly the same in late September in the thread "points,critiques,comments", and my sugestion was declined by Adam arguing that one posting a day is a fair number. It is his right and responsibility and I didn’t insist any longer, because I also knew that it would be just a try of a partial solution with not guarranteed result, notably quite unpopular among so called "most active" members.
But I rather wanted to say that I fully share your ideas in general, and maybe even in a stronger (more radical) way. If you have nothing better to do you can also look into the thread "critique quality - for us to think about" and read my (and others’) contributions there.
Later today/tomorrow when I would have more time I would elaborate further on these ideas and maybe contribute with my personal complaints ;-), but I would like not to repeat myself from the previous similar threads.
Thank you for starting this thread, we shouldn’t let sleep such thinking.
PeterB"
I didn’t want to repeat myself from previous threads and now have to from this one. My first contribution seems to be lost in the middle of the field - you didn’t react on it, Peter, while yu obviously react on everything. So just to dryw your attention, it might be useful also in the newest context. Although I don’t like this new direction - it is too much on personal note. I don’t want to follow that, rather to eliminate it.
(Continued)
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  #28  
Old 11-15-2004, 04:21 AM
Tavo Tavo is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

(Continuation)
Peter, you are right, I understand you, you remind me myself more than month ago. I agree with you that this excellent site is far from perfect, that too many contributions have a different purpose than generally declared goals of the site, many are hardly tolerable with their frequency. IMO you pointed out the main problem, I also feel it this way and recently raised my voice maybe even more radically.
Curtis, you are also right when calling for higher tolerance and showing some different possible attitudes. But you also repeated Peter’s thoughts in another words and presented them as your own, opposing to Peter’s, and opposed to some which he didn’t pronounce, and didn’t resist your permanent temptation to teach others on the values and joys of communication and even on the basics of the social behavior - you really use to do it and it might be rightly perceived as irritating and offending. Needless to say about your judgements on who and why is not welcomed here. Peter’s reactions are understandable.
Gal, Ebbe and Rinnie, your position is also understandable. I also agree that Curtis is one of the best critiquers here, but this doesn’t justify what I indicated above. So please, try to look at the exchange of views also from the other side, before you stand up in one formation to defend honor of your club member.
Peter, sorry, now I am out of time, so about my understanding of your ideas (really not very new ones) and my way to solve those issues - next time. Save your fun!
PeterB
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2004, 05:02 AM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Are we afraid to be honest?

Tavo wrote:
"My first contribution seems to be lost in the middle of the field - you didn’t react on it, Peter, while yu obviously react on everything."

Indeed Tavo, I didn't see your response, believe me it was overlooked and not ignored. Guess I am still trying to figure out how this site works, thought that all responses show up after everything that has been posted to date. I do appreciate the feedback to the points I raise, even the negative one.
I did read some threads in the past, didn't exactly find what I was looking for, I may have read the critique quality thread, will locate it again and go fromt there.
Your reply is much appreciated.
Peter
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2004, 05:23 AM
Homerhomer Homerhomer is offline
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Default Re: Yeah, yeah...

Galeota wrote:
"Had you ever tried to take a look at his critiques, and you would have noticed that he is one of the TE members who writes the most thoughtful and interesting critiques on other’s photographs. Had you ever taken a look at his critiques and you would have also noticed how much he is one of those persons always ready to give a sensitive and pertinent feedback to help other members improve their work. Had you EVER used the “search” function in this forum, and perhaps you would not have started this thread without measuring it properly to what has been discussed over here in the last months."

The answer is no to all those questions except that I have browsed through last few pages of this forum and came across threads about points, critiques quality and why some old timers are leaving or have already left. I don't doubt that the point I am trying to address has been discussed, I just haven't come across it.

Galoeta wrote:
"Tell me Peter, why are you posting your photographs in TE? Have you ever tried to post them somewhere else, in one of those “better sites of photo sharing”? Did you happen to have there thoughtful critiques on your work? Was your work improved by the comments you were receiving? If that was the case, how did you end in TE,"

I simply came across this site while looking for photos from certain country, and thought that this isn't a bad place to be. I use pbase for photo sharing, direct linking, sharing photos with certain groups etc, I don't expect much a critique there, although there are some galleries on pbase with fantastic dialogue going on. I frequently visit another photo forum with critiques, everything I know about photography is because the members there have critiqued my photos, told me what they like about certain aspects of it, suggested other options and approaches to make it better. I have learnt plenty from that, nothing from "wow great photo, excellent exposure" critique. Had everyone been telling me how great the exposure is on my over exposed photos, I would still be happy with those over exposed photos. Since the other forum covers subject not as wide as this one, I feel that both of the forums complement each other pretty well.

Galeota wrote:
"In your “Intro” page, you write that you are A MEMBER of a community, and that you hope to EXCHANGE opinions, suggestions and observations."

Nothing has changed since.

Galeota wrote:
"Actually, I do find that you brought us a rather interesting subject, although there’s already an extensive literature on it in this forum. It’s just the way you bring it to light that disturbs me. In another words, some humbleness wouldn’t do you any harm."

I will keep it in mind, this and my arrogance, my incapability of understanding, my existentialist crisis and anything else you wish to attribute to me.

Peter
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